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自由何在

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发表于 2004-6-10 23:59:54 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
不知道该发到什么地方只好胡乱找个组发了
用了四周Linux感觉非常不爽
应用不如晕倒死多没关系罗马不是一天建成的
中文输入像我现在这样没关系可以慢慢改进

我想说的是我们说在Linux下的自由

我用Windows最头痛的事情就是任何程序都可以在任何地方留下一堆垃圾
不管什么程序只要一安装就在注册表写一堆垃圾
现在在Linux下倒是好
经常程序跑到哪里去安装都找不到
留下什么垃圾也找不到

windows不好用但是linux更不好用
更不自由

我实在不知当初谁发明了rpm这么古怪的东西
我一安装一定告诉我缺什么包
这到底是安装程序还是整人程序?

windows下烦人的事情是程序必需安装装上就成了他的windows的一部分了
linux更好安装前还要设置一堆变量然后自己编译感觉程序和系统的藕合程度比windows还高
我企图找播放音乐的软件结果发现都要自己编译因为不同系统内核不一样

看看windows软件某某for98 以后
再看看linux某某软件给deban, Rh 7,8,9, Suse 7,8,9一堆rpm
我想在Mandrake上用gaim结果发现只能自己下载源程序然后编译

大家给我讲讲这到底是自由还是不自由
发表于 2004-6-11 00:19:20 | 显示全部楼层
linux需要改进,楼主需要学习。
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发表于 2004-6-11 00:21:18 | 显示全部楼层
先用:
rpm -qa | grep  包的部分名字
如:
rpm -qa | grep eal
会找到包的全名
RealPlayer-0.x-x-xxx
然后用:
rpm -ql RealPlayer
就可以看到包所有安装文件的位置
一般用
rpm -e RealPlayer
就可以完全删除包了
如果是从源代码的有点麻烦了,有可能用make uninstall,也有可能只能自己找了path,所以RPM好啊
另外,并不是我进行人身攻击,学东西不能浮躁,从DOS到WIN你花的时间很多,用LINUX要有一段时间才能豁然开朗
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发表于 2004-6-11 00:42:56 | 显示全部楼层
rpm的依赖性的确很烦人
不过现在不用这种东西啦.
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发表于 2004-6-11 01:20:24 | 显示全部楼层
如果你玩不来 Linux,那就只能被 Linux 玩。就这么简单,自己看着办吧
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 楼主| 发表于 2004-6-11 01:48:49 | 显示全部楼层

what and what

What is play Linux or played by Linux? That sentence is a useless 1+1=2
What I am talking is we can not just looking at Linux with a religious view. It has its advantage and also has its problem.
From a user's view, Linux is not a system that easy to be used. If Linux does want to develop it must change some things such as that bloody relying RPM package system.

Also, I want to discuss about what is the real free when we are using software, no matter you are an end user or a developer.

PS: ferlyworld, thanks so much for your help and for your kind attitude.

Sorry, I still have not found how to input Chinese characters under Mandrake Linux 10, so have to write in English.
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发表于 2004-6-11 09:06:53 | 显示全部楼层
RPM 很烂, 又偏偏被你遇上. 装 Debian 吧, 装程序从来不是问题.

http://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian.zh-cn.html
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发表于 2004-6-11 09:24:33 | 显示全部楼层
Hi, angryorca, I've decided to post this thread in English though I
can use Chinese Input smoothly under my Gentoo Linux.

I must say, you are new to linux, am I right? And the most important
thing that makes you uncomfortable with linux is that: you're
looking into linux THROUGH a Window

That's the nature of the people who try to migrate from windows to
linux, I was one of them the first time I touched Redhat. So what we
need is sit down, relax and be patient, I'm going to tell you some
more things about linux, trying my best to make things simple and
direct to the points.

And here are a serial of articles from IBM developerworks, they're
well written for beginners of Linux, expecially for windows users

1. Chinese Input Method:

Nowadays, many linux distros are good at i18n, you shouldn't have
any problem with CIM. if you setup the system language to Chinese
during the installation time. For instance, you can simply 'Ctrl +
Space' to activate/de-activate CIM under Fedora Core 2 once you get
it up and run.

When you have some more experience with Linux, you could choose
the right CIM to fit your own need. Just:

(1) Unintall the current CIM with, for instance, Fedora: rpm -e [pkg]
(2) Install the CIM you like: rpm -i [pkg]
(3) A little tweak here: change three environment variables in your
profile (/etc/profile or ~/.bashrc, etc.), those env-vars are aiming at
one thing: tell the system what CIM to  activate once you 'Ctrl +
Space', here's the sample code, sure, you can simply skip this part

[code:1]
export XMODIFIERS=@im=fcitx
export XIM=fcitx
export XIM_PROGRAM=fcitx
[/code:1]

fcitx is the CIM I use.

2. Packages Management

First of all, the major differance between windows and linux is their
Filesystem Hierarchy.

Windows: we have C:\, D:\, E:\...
Linux: we have /usr, /home, /bin...

It would be quite 'confused' for a lot of  windows people. However,
after reading this, you should have a clear view of the linux/unix
Filesystem Hierarchy. For more information, please visit the official
website of the File Hierarchy Standard.

Let's focus on pkgs management.

. Windows: pkg-oriented - each software has a folder of its own, for
instance, C:\Program Files\Foo\; has manual of its own - C:\Program
Files\Foo\help\...

. Linux: system-oriented - each pkg will be integrated into the
system. That is, its executable binaries are integrated into 'bin'
folders like /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin (common pkgs stay in the
/usr/bin and /usr/local/bin), its man pages are integrated into system
wide man page folders /usr/share/man, and libs are integrated into
some 'lib' folder like /usr/lib. One of the most advantage of doing so
is that, you can man page everywhere without running the pkg.

You are haveing a whole system with a lot of integrated TOOLs under
linux/unix, while you're having a system with a lot of separated
Softwares under windows.

Then, we might ask, how could we probably know where the hell all
these 'bin's, 'man's, 'lib's bla bla go?? Well, that's what a linux pkg
management system like 'rpm' will manage for you!

'rpm' system knows where to lay down all those stuffs, keeps them
well organized and remember them during pkg installation (rpm -i).
Once you intend to remove a pkg, just simply 'rpm -e' then the 'rpm'
system will do all the dirty works for you: it removes all those stuffs
of the pkg, and your system is very clean!

What's more, if you decide to manually build and install pkg from
source, just follow the pkg's README, install it. Once you would like
to remove this pkg, just 'locate [pkg]', find out all the stuffs belong
to the pkg, go to the directories, simply delete all of them, and
not even a piece of garbage will be left without YOUR PERMISSION!

And, what if the pkg is depended by other pkgs? Yeah, that's what
again the pkg management system will solve for you!

(If you're an advance user, you could hold a piece of tracking log
paper to track all those pkgs you manually installed

The central spirit of linux/unix system is that: everything is file (even
your hardware devices are mapped to /dev !). No anything like
windows registry -- your system will be totally clean up after you
simply delete all the files of any pkg!

Here is the conclusion:

1. There will be NO FREEDOM if you try to ride A Moter Bike as it
was a Bike or a HORSE!
;-)

2. If you REALLY want to get closer to Linux, Please, be patient and
be ready to learn new things that might be totally different from
windows. Or, just stay there with your most familiar system and
focus on getting jobs done with computer.

HTH

BTW:
If anyone thinks it's useful, could anyone help me to translate it to
Chinese, at least it is a not so short tutorial, hehe
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发表于 2004-6-11 12:49:24 | 显示全部楼层
楼主的问题是不会用urpmi。真是愧对Mandrakelinux用户这个头衔。你用urpmi abc.mdk.i586.rpm 就可以自动安装了,缺啥系统会自动帮你装好的。
gaim系统自带,但不一定能用QQ,你需要从LinuxSir里下载一个大tar再装就可以了。
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发表于 2004-6-11 15:18:19 | 显示全部楼层
对于只使用了一个月就开始抱怨的用户,我不想多说什么。至少你不应该怀疑“自由”!没有任何一种技能是靠玩一个月就能玩出花样来的。你这个样子,什么都学不到。还是不要抱怨,踏踏实实在社团里泡上几个月,用google搜索所有你不明白的事物吧。五六年后,如果你还在用linux,你会明白什么叫做自由。
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发表于 2004-6-12 02:07:58 | 显示全部楼层
自由是要付出代价的,不付出代价就没有自由
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发表于 2004-6-12 02:19:27 | 显示全部楼层
如果楼主的努力最后只是把大家拉回包管理器谁好谁坏的泥潭中来,恐怕对大家来说都是损耗。有关包管理器设计的优劣不属本版讨论的范畴
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 楼主| 发表于 2004-6-12 04:57:03 | 显示全部楼层
[quote:e9ead2bc30="xLoneStar"]如果楼主的努力最后只是把大家拉回包管理器谁好谁坏的泥潭中来,恐怕对大家来说都是损耗。有关包管理器设计的优劣不属本版讨论的范畴[/quote]

Finally, some body has notified what I did talk about.

Sorry. I have to go on using English.
I have found the Chinese input method under Mandrake Linux but it caused the Epiphany to crash twice and I lost twice the content I had typed.

I memtioned the RPM when I post the message only because it did give me a high impression but I only wanted to use it as an example of showing you my feeling.

I may type in Chinese under Windows tomorrow to talk something more if I can get some time. It's a bit ironic.
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发表于 2004-6-12 11:47:06 | 显示全部楼层
It's not a matter of freedom at all。
You  seemed to be cynical .
Then you need more patience and tolerance especially firstly approach new things.
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 楼主| 发表于 2004-6-12 18:06:55 | 显示全部楼层
本想写点什么,后来想了想,还是算了。
现在想想,其实注意听别人说的话是挺难的一件事情,想让别人理解你的意思更难。
以后还是专心讨论技术问题吧。至少不容易引起歧义。

To Cure, 巨感谢你写了这么多。:-)
让我知道了很多关于rpm包的事情。并且非常感谢你提供资料和代码给我。虽然并不认同你的结论,或者说不认同你的论证。因为我个人认为你的结论是非常正确的大实话。

To mandrakechina, 我本来就没有你说的那个头衔啊。况且我装Mandrake Linux在机器上也就是1个星期,有什么事情不知道也是很正常的啊。就算是用了10年的系统(for example windows) 咱也还是有很多很多很多不知道的事情。

To EricNeon, 系统是拿来用的,不是拿来折磨自己的。如果我需要每天泡在社团,泡上半年才能学会使用Linux,那么请你给我一个我需要这么做的理由先。

To athlonxhy,  驾驭系统的自由本是我想讨论的事情。It IS a matter of freedom. 虽然我现在感觉比我发第一个贴的时候还要郁闷那么一些。

再次感谢那些真心帮助我的人。
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